10 comments

1. Anonymous Says:
   Posted on February 4, 2010 at 2:34:00 PM EST

   It is always excellent to see the diety of Yeshua lifted up !

   
2. Judah Gabriel Himango Says:
   Posted on February 5, 2010 at 11:08:00 AM EST

   Yeah, and that's precisely my concern, too. Kinzer nailed it there: those who place the utmost importance on acceptance and integration in the Jewish world will be the ones most tempted to minimize the deity of Yeshua.
   
   The bit Leman reported, about Kinzer saying we must gain acceptance as a legitimate Judaism or we'll die in a few centuries -- now that's where I differ with Kinzer. I think that's negative, old generation fears. We, the new generation, have a brighter outlook, one that doesn't require the approval of others for our very survival.
   
   Personally, I think we're fantasizing about being accepted by the Jewish world as a legitimate Judaism. I think it's pure fantasy. Unless things change dramatically, a real miracle in changing of the hearts of Judaism's leaders, I don't see this acceptance taking place. It's a noble goal, I am glad Kinzer and friends are aiming at it. I think it's simply unachievable for the foreseeable future. And claiming we'll perish without it was foolish.

   
3. Rabbi Joshua Says:
   Posted on February 5, 2010 at 12:21:00 PM EST

   Hi Judah,
   
   Thanks for your comment. However, I still think you're reading too much into Derek's post without having actually heard or read Kinzer's comments first hand.
   
   Not once did I hear anyone at Hashivenu speak of that which you assume. Rather it is the opposite. Because so many of us just "live" (not forced) in the Jewish community - our parents, grandparents, friends, the schools we study in, the stores we shop at, etc. - we are just naturally a part of the community we live in.
   
   Despite your concerns nobody is naive about certain realities. However, many of us, despite our strong and visible faith in Yeshua, do have very normative relations within the Jewish community already - again not because we are trying so hard - but because WE ARE JEWISH! You're assumptions are that somehow once we became MJ's we have abandoned our families, our friends from Hebrew school, or have moved out of Jewish communities. That is actually not the case for some of us.
   
   Although there will always be those who vehemently oppose us, we cannot live in fear. We must just go about our lives and DEMONSTRATE our Jewishness AND faith in Yeshua.
   
   With all that said ... Kinzer is still not wrong. History demonstrates that those Jewish communities (Ebionites, Nazarenes, etc.) that did end up isolating themselves from the wider Christian and/or Jewish communities disappeared. One cannot be Jewish by themselves. Jewish continuity (as demonstrated by history) only happens in community.
   
   So the discussion in question is not about acceptance, but rather existence. If we begin to see ourselves apart from the Jewish community we will become such - and will risk the end of all sociological groups that part from the wider whole.

   
4. Gene Shlomovich Says:
   Posted on February 5, 2010 at 1:00:00 PM EST

   "Because so many of us just "live" (not forced) in the Jewish community - our parents, grandparents, friends, the schools we study in, the stores we shop at, etc. - we are just naturally a part of the community we live in. "
   
   Well said, Joshua. This is one thing (among many others) that "messianic" folks outside of the Messianic Jewish movement simply can't relate to. We, as Jews, already move within a Jewish space, we are part of it, we are it and we don't expect others to feel the same connection to our people and our longing for them - because they just can't. How easy it is then for those who are not Jewish, those who have never lived in a Jewish family or community or have given it up completely through assimilation, to tell us: cut yourself off from the Jews and Judaism, you've gotten too close to THEM, stop, you are in danger... you got us, you don't need the Jewish world!
   
   I don't buy this talk.

   
5. Judah Gabriel Himango Says:
   Posted on February 5, 2010 at 1:38:00 PM EST

   Hi Rabbi,
   
   You said 2 things that appear contradictory. Please clarify:
   
   1. "Not once did I hear anyone at Hashivenu speak of that which you assume."
   
   2. "Kinzer is still not wrong. History demonstrates that those Jewish communities that did end up isolating themselves from the wider Christian and/or Jewish communities disappeared."
   
   The thing I assume is that Kinzer said we'll perish if we're not accepted by the Jewish world as a legit Judaism. If Kinzer didn't say this, my concern and critique disappears.

   
6. Judah Gabriel Himango Says:
   Posted on February 5, 2010 at 1:42:00 PM EST

   Gene,
   
   >> cut yourself off from the Jews and Judaism, you've gotten too close to THEM, stop, you are in danger... you got us, you don't need the Jewish world! I don't buy this talk.
   
   I don't buy that talk either. You're misinterpreting my concern.

   
7. Rabbi Joshua Says:
   Posted on February 5, 2010 at 4:18:00 PM EST

   Judah-
   
   I just went back and re-read Kinzer's paper and I could not find any reference even similar to your asumption that "we'll perish if we're not accepted by the Jewish world as a legit Judaism."
   
   Rather the nuance is what I previously suggested, and is even represented in the Kinzer quote above.
   
   What I undestand Kinzer to be saying is that we need to be involved and a part of our wider Jewish community (he argues for a similar relationship with the Church). As isolation has never been good for any social group within history. This is not just a Jewish issue.
   
   As I mentioned earlier, the issue is not "acceptance," but rather existence.
   
   Although I recognize G-d's involvement, the Torah always makes clear we have to do our part so G-d can do G-d's part (see my most recent post on Parashat Yitro). Don't think that somehow isolation on the part of MJ can result in a different end from that of the Ebionites or Nazarenes of history.
   
   We exist as Jews because we are Jews, not because we try to somehow earn acceptance. Jewish is a state of being. You either are or you are not.

   
8. Anonymous Says:
   Posted on February 6, 2010 at 11:50:00 PM EST

   Thanks for clarifying, Joshua.
   
   Perhaps you can explain your last sentence. What is the state of being Jewish? We're a people with ancient royalty, nobility (not Rothchild!), old families, bigotries, strengths, weaknesses. We have sects, secularists, atheists, Ashkinazim, Sephardim, Yeke, Litvish. . .You get my drift.
   
   Cicero wrote of us to his fellow Romans telling them "you know how influential they are in politics and how they stick together." I haven't seen a lot of that on the web. In fact, I haven't seen a lot of nicities on the web at all. I'm not saying you. But blogs' comments sections are often nauseating with snide disagreements over issues that have no real Jewish connection. There is an excessive need, it seems, to prove Jewishness by someone's impression of what is Jewish.
   
   I'll soon be parting from following the "movement" on line, so I'd like a pretty straight-forward answer, if you feel like it.
   
   Thanks,
   
   Dav

   
9. Judah Gabriel Himango Says:
   Posted on February 14, 2010 at 2:37:00 PM EST

   Hi rabbi,
   
   >> I just went back and re-read Kinzer's paper and I could not find any reference even similar to your asumption that "we'll perish if we're not accepted by the Jewish world as a legit Judaism."
   
   Ok, perhaps Leman misquoted or misunderstood him.
   
   Or maybe I just read him uncharitably. :-)
   
   Whatever the case, I would really like to read the paper firsthand. Is it available online?

   
10. Rabbi Joshua Says:
    Posted on February 15, 2010 at 1:55:00 AM EST

    Hi Judah,
    
    Just send me an email and I'll send you the paper - rebyosh@gmail.com.
    
    Cheers!